hey,

i feel like i encounter a lot of writing here with very very similar basic problems (essentially writing that relies heavily on cliches and abstractions) and i feel that if i could write a generic message to help people understand how to avoid them it could be helpful for some cases. would this violate rules of reviewing? if so would providing a link to articles about these basic writing problems violate rules? thanks!

It depends on the specific content of the “tips” you’re providing. Many times what to one reader is “cliche” to another is effective. Also, cliche has a valid place in writing, especially when used to emphasize satire or humor. As a reviewer, it’s very easy and lazy to simply label something as “cliche” without actually giving helpful advice as to why the cliche does not work in that specific case, and what could be done to improve it. Also, as far as the “generic message” goes, if you’re talking about using the same words for multiple reviews, then you’re creeping into “spam” territory. Your reviews should be specific to the piece reviewd, helpful to the author, and concise. Follow those review guidelines and you’ll do well.

i did mean using the same words for multiple reviews and this sounds like it is off limits so i will definitely avoid it

and what about linking to articles? there are some that i read on PFFA when i first started writing poetry and they helped me out alot and i feel that they could probably do the same for beginners in poetry posting here but i’m unsure about whether it would be perceived as condescending or even cheating my way into credits?

thank you for the response :)

Advice like this is best done in the forums or in the comments where creators are not paying credits.

In a review, you need to stick very closely to the particular text, as metaphoricalsimile pointed out.

I think it would be fine to link stuff in private messages and in the comments for reviews, but for the actual review I would stick to the basics. Some people simply don’t like to stick to conventions and “rules” of writing, so posting an article like that without a request for more information could indeed be construed as condescending. Why not simply write which “rules” they broke in the review, why breaking those rules made the piece less satisfying than it would have been, and then if they say “hey thanks for the great advice!” you can link the article. If they say “these were purposeful stylistic choices” then they’d probably be insulted by your attempts to “teach” them.

Seen those. People always feel attacked and insulted by someone trying to help them this way. Because they already know EVERYTHING and are already the best writers in the world.

Seriously, just write your review and then later, you can PM them your “generic message” – which sounds like a nice and noble idea: you help someone and they don’t hate you.

You posted while I was still busy writing DC. Not fair! Wait your turn next time sulks in the corner

DC shouts into the corner, “Life is not fair!”

I think I fall into that category, jeb. I do know everything, and I am the best writer in the world. sighs and thinks fondly of all his (imaginary) accomplishments

But seriously,

I agree with metaphoricalsimile that pointing out the specific problem in the text and giving a specific rule is always the way to go. For larger issues of style, structure, voice, and plot, you should also refer to specific areas in the text where things have gone awry. Never, never, never say things like “needs tightening,” “expand a little,” or “just needs a bit of shaping up”. The first thing I think when I see comments like these is “just needs a little refund”.

“You can come out of the corner now!”

My favorite is when people write that something doesn’t “flow” or even does “flow.” What a BS literary catch-phrase.

How could I have forgotten that one? Yes, what if I, the author, don’t want it to “flow”? What if I want it to be bumpy? Absurdism is supposed to be bumpy. Flow, my ass.

That’s called diarrhea.

We’ve discussed several of these issues many times on the forums.
I’ll just repeat what I’ve said before – a review should be about getting inside the author’s mind, see what is being attempted and help with that.
Many people don’t know the ‘writing rules’, as said above, give them an example of their ‘mistake’ and if they agree, add reference books in the comments.
However, they may know the rules and willingly break them, just tell them it doesn’t work for you.
Pointing to a reference book is really a lazy way to review.

I use those words in my reviews!!! You asses! But of course, they are just to let the author know, in a matter of words most can relate to, the way the peice read for me. I mean, yeah, they’re generic terms, but most people know what you’re trying to say if you use them. Do you know how many words it would take someone like me to say ‘flow’ or ‘tighten’ in ‘other words’? Heh..get out our check cards.

But, to the point, I agree with what everyone else is saying. Wait and see if the author is in want, not need, of a ‘teaching’ device. Many young authors have absolutely no interest and you will be wasting your time. Many seasoned writers break the rules intentionally. Either way, that author is probably going to be insulted.

Though, many just dont realize their mistakes and wll be thrilled to be pointed in the right direction. Just to keep your rating in better standings, I would wait until afteryour review and see if the author seems to be well receiving of the advice or not. You can generally tell by someone’s reaction to your review where they are standing with said review. Those who don’t comment on your review probably don’t want the advice. Or if they just say thanks. It means they know they aren’t getting refunded, but they didn’t like what you had to say ;) Some people can’t help but to be polite and say thanks, but if you look at their other comments, they are rather talkative ;P

My feeling is that you shouldn’t be too concerned about the writer’s feelings when you offer them a critique. You should simply be honest and clear. They might appreciate your comments or they might run to their room and cry, but if you told them what you feel is the truth, and were respectful, then you’ve done your job. It may be that you find they’ve submitted your critique for a refund, but you can always challenge that and get your points back if you’re following the rules.
Of course, there’s another problem in that last. Some of the rules are disastrously vague. What does it mean to be “concise”? If a 30 word poem needs 300 words of consideration, then 300 words should be considered concise. Here, however, being concise means using damned few words. Often that means that you, as the reviewer, resort to cherry-picking points to bring up in your critique, therefore cheating the author of a great deal of supportive advice. I think it would help if there were a reasonable upper limit to the points one must spend to open a review. Then, if we wanted to say a lot, we could, and without hurting the credit finances of the author.
As it is, I often find myself submitting a short, watered-down review for the points, but sending the author a much longer version through internal email. But that’s a kind of double-action chore that I don’t have time to engage in with everybody.

Regarding mentioning the “flow” or “tightness” of a submission, I think these are fair game and even important topics to bring up, as long as you explain exactly what you mean. Flow, as in narrative rhythm and continuity, is important. Nor does it mean that the piece should flow smoothly. It could easily be important that the piece should flow roughly. It’s still flow, the rhythm of words that pulls the reader through the piece at the proper pace and energy.

Concise review of a 30 word poem may still be a 3000 word review. It’s not about the word count.
But if more than 20% of your review is quoting that’s not good. You can say paragraph 3, stanza 5, chapter 11, line 7000, whatever. You should never ever quote a substantial amount of text just to say you liked it. If more than half of your review is babbling about your personal experiences concerning the subject, NOT the writing, that’s not concise.

stephanloy,

“Concise” does not mean short. Often the failure to be concise is the use of cut and paste. It is rarely necessary to cut and paste. You can simply say S2, L4 for stanza two, line 4. They will figure it out. If you cut and paste a stanza or a line and say “I really like that” or “The flow was really good in that line” they you are both not concise and not constructive. It is both cut and paste and praise. What’s helpful about that? If you say, I would consider revising S2, L4 “fabric nations” to “foreign fabrics” for the alliteration, then you’ve given the writer something and “justified” the comment. It may still be an opinion but the basis of the opinion is based on a poetic device.

There is an upper limit on points given to the reviewer. I believe it’s +200 points. I often exceed the point limit in my reviews which is a huge amount of work, but if I’m going to bother reviewing a work, I’m going to give the writer something to work with. I rarely get my reviews sent for refunds (or if they are sent for refunds, I don’t know about it :-) ). However, I try to focus on the text and on the concrete. It makes all the difference.

eremiphobia,

Cut and paste, generic reviews are a no-no. A RG may access your page and see you are giving everyone the same generic advice. It “suggests” you are cheating the system since you can cut and paste that to every review for points without doing more than skim the work. That’s not fair to the writer. There are many ways you can bring these points up in a review. You can raise them by pointing out “specifically” in the text where this problem arises. Otherwise, it comes across as lazy.

Overall, from the comments here the issue with all of these sorts of comments is they are not specific and concrete and do not provide the writer with sufficient information to help them resolve the issue. It also demonstrates lazy reviewing.

I agree that there should be a ‘cut-off’ amount of credits to open reviews. We are cut-off on how many credits we can receive for a review; it should work both ways.

I mean, I write some reallllly long reviews, and I don’t feel guilty about it because I now that I am not ‘cheating’ my way to the credit max; I give a complete review; always long (though I did skimp on some 6 worders recently just to get them out of my damn queue). But at the same time that I know I’m not ‘cheating’, I feel like I am costing the writer too much. It would be fair to give them a max credit limit to open long reviews and will make everyone more comfortable about giving/receiving longer reviews.

Though, from my experience, no-one has minded paying the extra credits for a long and decent review, it still seems unfair to a point. As I said, I think everyone will feel better about long reviews if that were the case.